Single Machine Permit - what it looks like

[marktol]

Thanks Paul,

I sent a covering letter with mine explaining all that. I also made reference on the form itself. I suspect it's one of those things where it's pot luck should you get it!

[marktol]

Well I had a call from a very friendly and helpful lady this afternoon who wanted to confirm a couple of details with me and has said my permit should be in the post to me middle of next week!

[jonesthegarage]

I'm assuming "D Burke" in the Gambling Commission is not a deliberate pun to avoid identifying themselves.

Can I draw on your collective wisdom for this:

If I sell a machine through somewhere like Elephant House, do I need a permit?

If I sell a machine through pennymachines.co.uk, do I need a permit?

and if not, why not?

[pennymachines]

If it is the type of machine the Commission defines as a gaming machine, the regulations, as they stand, say you need either a Section 27 Certificate or Single Machine Permit to sell privately, by auction, via the internet or by any other means.

In the past, some auctioneers have approached the Commission and gained permission to sell vintage slot machines on behalf of private sellers under a Section 27 Certificate. Typically, this has involved providing the Commission with an itemised list of relevant lots prior to sale. As far as I'm aware, this has not been attempted in recent years.

[pennymachines]

Actually, reviewing the Gambling Commission's website, I think the Section 27 Certificate is now replaced by a Non-remote gaming machine operating licence: supplier which would cost £977 per annum provided your annual gross sales are less than £550k.

How much are operating licence application fees - gaming machines (fruit machines, slot machines)?

[raj]

Maybe I've misread the pages quoted, but the fee quoted above is the licence application fee, PLUS an annual fee of just £1258, as below.

How much is the annual fee?

Your first annual fee is due 30 days after your licence is issued to you.

For the first year, unless you are applying for a remote licence, the annual fees below will be reduced by 25% (ancillary and linked licence annual fees are not subject to this reduction).

If you apply for a combination of different operating licences, you will get a discount on your annual fee.

Non-remote licence - annual fee
Annual gross sales
A
Less than £550k B
£550k - £6.6m C
£6.6m+
Gaming machine technical: full - annual fee £3,102 £6,625 £15,813
Gaming machine technical: supplier - annual fee £1,258 £3,397 £4,338
Gaming machine technical: software - annual fee £1,608 £4,044 £6,575

As previously considered, the Gambling Commission is here to STOP what we are trying to do, no matter how helpful the desk dollies are. There is a political agenda that does not like unregulated trades in gaming machines, and ebay etc are under the cosh to provide the evidence. There seems to be a hit list of frequent fliers who get bumped, but newbies manage to slip through the net, for a while. The next stage may be threats of prosecution for breaches, if they can be bothered, or a very sharp bump in the cost of a Single Permit to further drive the provision of machines under the table. Make no mistake, we are not a special case.

[slotalot]

Make no mistake, we are not a special case.

Well we should be because we are NOT gambling in any way shape or form
And one day it will have to change....We will fight them on the beaches, etc,etc,etc,

[coppinpr]

Raj, I think you're quite wrong. First, we get bumped from ebay because someone is reporting us, ebay have as good as admitted this; second, the rules on owning and selling slots are very old, and outdated. If they are out to stop us, they have been doing it for close to 50 years - nothing new. Ebay has certainly made the Commission more aware of slot sales and they are doing what they have always done, policing the sale of machines within the law as it stands. That's all they can do. Just because the law is outdated means nothing to them. They are a commission and work within a legal mandate. Change the law and they will follow the changes.
If you follow the single permit application rules and qualify as a fit person (that's us lot out of it then) to sell 2 machines per year, they will give you a permit. They can't decide randomly - if you qualify, you will get it.
As to auction rooms, I suspect if Elephant House got reported as selling large numbers of machines, and not a lot else, the Commission would be forced to act. If they are ignorant of the fact, they will ignore. Point it out and once again they have to do their job, which is what has happened on ebay. As long as no one said anything, all was fine; report it and the law must be obeyed.

[pennymachines]

Maybe I've misread the pages quoted, but the fee quoted above is the licence application fee, PLUS an annual fee of just £1258, as below.

I'm sure you're right. It has to be more expensive than before, doesn't it?

[raj]

Everyone has a right to their interpretation of the law as it stands, and I have had a similar discussion about the law on speeding, in a different publication. The law states that you comply with the speed regulations for a particular stretch of road and the penalty for disobeying said regulation, if caught, is a fine and points on your licence.
Helpfully, the Dept of Transport put up signs to advise said limits, and the car manufacturers install a speedo to advise the driver of their current velocity. By careful manipulation of one eye and one foot, it is possible to obey the law and avoid penalties. If you chose to ignore the rules, then don't whine about getting caught. You are either driving without due care, or wilfully breaking the law. Slam Dunk.

We don't fit into any special category, at the present time, so risk paying the price for non-compliance, until the law is changed to our benefit.
I don't believe this will happen any time soon, and we will be dragged down by the high prize fruit machines on sale, which is what the Gambling Commission is really worried about, but they are bound by their own internal guidance flowcharts that cover all types of slots.

[marktol]

Well, my permit arrived in the post today

[badpenny]

I'm just coming out of the back end of a thoroughly enjoyable fortnight of Sciatica, it was a shock as I only thought old people got it ..........anyhoo it did leave me horizontal and not overly observant about anything that didn't include Cocodamol or Diazapozafassapan in it's name.

Consequently I'm out of touch with eBay, are machines still being pulled or are they getting through at the moment?

[coppinpr]

Seems a little hit and miss but I suspect any machines that look worthwhile are getting pulled, selective targeting by someone perhaps?

[badpenny]

Hmmm? ... I was wondering if now that we've made it obvious that individuals are putting effort, money and time into obtaining permits it might be more fun for any of a mischievous disposition to further frustrate by ceasing their reporting activities.

[marktol]

Topic merged - Site Admin.

So I had my item removed earlier today despite the fact I made it very clear I have a permit. I passed the initial screening so someone has clearly reported it and they just removed it all the same. No communication to verify. Not that it will do me any favours but I have emailed them to explain...!

Rant over

[jonesthegarage]

I'm afraid there seems to be no logic or consistency to the ebay police. I've had and seen stuff go the full distance with no permit and no subterfuge on description and then there is stuff that you really need to read between the lines to establish they are selling a full machine and it gets pulled. Had a conversation with someone local the other day after his listing was pulled and he said it was being re-instated after he spent an hour on the phone to them (no permit!), it then re-appeared and promptly disappeared again (since sold privately).

...but, adding a question to a question - who are these people who you allege report listings and what do you think they get from it?

[coppinpr]

Don't think anyone is going to name names but the reasons are clear.
Let's say you do have a licence, and it costs you a packet per year: A. you wouldn't like people selling machines without a licence, B. You can eliminate the competition, C. You increase prices.

Or let's say you were thinking of running an auction and wanted to increase, A. the number of lots, B. the number of buyers, which equals higher prices, which equals higher premiums.

[slotalot]

[url]http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/36659[/url]
Still got time to do it

[jonesthegarage]

Thank you for that coppinpr, very clear to me now. I had no idea the world of machine auctions was as complex as getting your wife to take your speeding points.

[raj]

Having followed a few auctions over the past month, there seems to be a pattern emerging. 'Newbies' often don't get pulled because they are not on anyone's favourite sellers list, don't have an obvious 'slot' id and don't make any informed claims in the advert.

I suspect the mole is fairly lazy and does not have the stamina for the 'game'. I'm looking at the days that ads get pulled and maybe Friday nights may be a good time to start the sale for 3 days. A bit like the Diddies using Bank Holidays to turn a nice field into a caravan park, knowing no one is likely to catch them.

I've just found my local fence selling hundreds of stolen? wheel trims (yes, my street did get done over!) and he puts fake contact details on his ads and won't reply to any emails. Others dump their IDs after a period of time and start again to try and fool the revenue and the plods.

Other slot sellers have put in fictional or 'borrowed' permit details, strings of numbers, or simply just claim to have a permit, which seem to get past the 'mole'.

All this suggests to me a one or 2 man crusade to spoil the hobby for the majority, rather than Big Brother getting steamed up about a few ordinary people having some fun and pleasure and avoiding a £25 permit.