Hi from new Allwin collector

Tell us a bit about yourself.
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pauljt71
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Hi from new Allwin collector

Post by pauljt71 »

Hi folks,
I am based in Nottinghamshire and have just purchased my first machines.

Looking for resources with specs information and advice about payout adjustments and restoring.

I have an Elevens with matching numbers from 1956 and a Pilwin 1956.
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treefrog
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Re: Hi from new Allwin collector

Post by treefrog »

Hello there and welcome,

Sounds like some nice first machines. Perhaps provide some info on the payout info you are after, are they complete etc. Also pictures will help people advise.....

TF
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brigham
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Re: Hi from new Allwin collector

Post by brigham »

Good place to start, the Elevenses.
Bryan's machines have all the Operator's Adjustments marked in red. You can generally work them all out.
Pilwin is a good example of Bryan's quirkiness. This one manufacturer alone can provide an extensive and varied collection, although the more arcane models fetch alarmingly high prices.
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moonriver
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Re: Hi from new Allwin collector

Post by moonriver »

arcane! that's a good word rarely used
pauljt71
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Re: Hi from new Allwin collector

Post by pauljt71 »

Thanks for the welcome. I am so excited to find this forum. I have already learned so much in just 24 hours from checking the various threads for my machines.

I also have a Lucky Twelve that I think is an Oliver Whales although there is no name on the back flash. It is original and warped like lots of others I have read about here. Can someone confirm if it is a Whales as the Parker cabinets look similar?
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treefrog
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Re: Hi from new Allwin collector

Post by treefrog »

Yes, it is Olly Whales.....someone has taken the time to create a image of backflash and top flash in resources if you choose to change, although if not affecting play worth keeping the original.. !!

There are a few threads talking about flattening the originals, which may be possible.

The Lucky Twelve flash & topflash

Forgot to add, it looks like the machine maybe has been changed to another coin, maybe new penny, with the replaced coin entry. If so, it can be changed to the old penny with small changes depending on what has been done to the coin chute and payout.....or leave as is if happy.
pauljt71
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Re: Hi from new Allwin collector

Post by pauljt71 »

Many thanks Tree Frog. It has a broken spring on the payout slide. Having a look tomorrow to see if I can get it going again. 😀


0B80DBCA-3CD4-4CF1-ABD3-F3C8BD5B25E1.jpeg

treefrog wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:07 pm ...it looks like the machine maybe has been changed to another coin
Yes it plays on the new 1p. My dilemma is do I convert back to old penny or keep on new 1p? What’s the general opinion on this. I intend putting the machines back into use as part of my vintage entertainment business offering a display of these as added attractions. After all, they were designed to be played. 😀
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coppinpr
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Re: Hi from new Allwin collector

Post by coppinpr »

Others, like JC, know more than I do but my guess is you might be better changing them back to 1d if you intend to use them. The gaming commission can be very picky about "gambling machines" I know. I know play a penny to perhaps win a penny but the gov won't see it that way. Best to play safe. JC will advise you I'm sure. :cool:
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brigham
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Re: Hi from new Allwin collector

Post by brigham »

It needs to be returned to the old penny immediately.
Dilemma solved!
pauljt71
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Re: Hi from new Allwin collector

Post by pauljt71 »

Is this for legal reasons or purely originality reasons? I would prefer original ones. I found a link on line to the licensing query and these are games of skill, so apparently don’t need a license now?
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treefrog
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Re: Hi from new Allwin collector

Post by treefrog »

I would not worry about the legal side as you are using for personal use. Most comments will be about originality, so people like old penny.

You need new a coin entry, originals come up occasionally, but a repro is available from Retro Arcade, very similar to Olly Whales. The coin hopper has been sleeved and filled, so needs to be cleared out. Check the coin slide has not been changed. Also the coin chutes will have been modified for a narrower coin.
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moonriver
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Re: Hi from new Allwin collector

Post by moonriver »

pauljt71 wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:22 am Is this for legal reasons or purely originality reasons? I would prefer original ones. I found a link on line to the licensing query and these are games of skill, so apparently don’t need a license now?
Allwins are not games of skill. The subject has been discussed at great length here before, if you care to search.
pennymachines
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Re: Hi from new Allwin collector

Post by pennymachines »

I assume Paul got his information from the website which hosts a PDF which starts thus:
The Gambling Commission website has recently updated its guidelines to help
identify machines requiring a Gaming Licence and those considered Skill With Prizes
and not requiring a licence. This is welcome news for collectors of Allwin machines
who have long wanted clarification. The following addresses the main points as
defined on their site.

It then goes on to elaborate. But this document is a bit of a mystery because it's not clear who wrote it (I found nothing illuminating about the website hosting the PDF), nor does it say when the supposed changes were made, and the Commission doesn't make any specific reference to allwins.

It's interesting though, because it's based upon an interpretation of the Commission's SWP definition (Skill With Prizes do not need a license or permit to be operated in public).

We have tended to pessimistically assume that allwins would currently be viewed as games of chance because section 6 of the Gambling Act 2005 says:
(2) In this Act “game of chance”—
(a) includes—
(i) a game that involves both an element of chance and an element
of skill,
(ii) a game that involves an element of chance that can be
eliminated by superlative skill...

However, there's a serious problem with the drafting of the Act above, because it tries to define "game of chance" using the expression "element of chance". That's to say, the concept of chance itself isn't actually defined, explained or analysed, and is assumed to be understood. This is unhelpful, because definitions of "chance", "luck" and "random" are slippery and debatable. We saw this in our long Allwins Skill discussion.

It's clear from the Act that demonstrating an allwin is a game of skill by consistently winning would count for nothing if there was still considered to be an element of chance. So instead of arguing that it is a game of skill, one would have to argue that it is not a game of chance. This would depend, not upon the existence of skill, but the definition of "chance".

As the Gambling Commission says, ultimately it is for the Courts to decide, but it seems unlikely they will ever be required to do so.
pauljt71
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Re: Hi from new Allwin collector

Post by pauljt71 »

Yes Pennymachines , it was the site you are referring to that I obtained the PDF.
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coppinpr
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Re: Hi from new Allwin collector

Post by coppinpr »

treefrog wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:26 amI would not worry about the legal side as you are using for personal use.
Tom, I think this side issue cropped up because they might not be used for personal use:
pauljt71 wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:20 pmI intend putting the machines back into use as part of my vintage entertainment business offering a display of these as added attractions. After all, they were designed to be played.
pauljt71
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Re: Hi from new Allwin collector

Post by pauljt71 »

I am collecting these privately but looking at the feasibility of having some for the public to play at events. This is the reason for asking about the legals etc. I really thought it would not be a problem after reading that site but I guess there will be more to it.
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