BM Co. auto-pay Wizard & Allwin

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junior
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BM Co. auto-pay Wizard & Allwin

Post by junior »

Hi,
I have just started looking at my newest addition which is a good looking Wizard allwin, however I've a couple of problems and would appreciate advice and help. Firstly, when I put penny in it does not go down the slide it, goes anywhere but down the slide. After a while it became obvious that there are two parts to the slide and I'm missing the top. How can I get over this? I am also missing a 'Win' sign from above the gallery. Where or how do I get one of these made? Finally, I have a lock with no key. I have reluctantly taken things apart as far as I dare but I can't get the board off the bolts. Has anyone done this before? As a newbie I am worried about damage I might do.
Thanks.
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Re: Bm co- wizard

Post by badpenny »

Wotcha .....

I think we need photos matey.
I for one am confused, as you say you have a lock but no key, which suggests perhaps you're locked out of it?
However you say you're missing the top part of the coin chute, so you can't be locked out.

If you're not locked out why are you taking the board off?
Do you mean the back of the play field and not the back of the case?

If so, why are you taking that off?
If you're trying to get to the play field, doesn't the glass slide out?
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BP
junior
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Re: Bm co- wizard

Post by junior »

Hi BP,
There was never a back on the machine. The door is open but the lock is in locked position. I'm not sure where the dictator is but I do have an uncle who wants to be an auntie. I will add photos soon.
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Re: Bm co- wizard

Post by treefrog »

I believe the one below is your machine. BP maybe a little confused, but on many allwins you need to remove the back board to get to the lock on the door, which is covered. As long as all other components have been removed that would prevent the board being lifted, you could use light taps with a hammer to either push the bolts through or try and get some leverage under the board to lift it up. Be careful though as you cannot remove the glass obviously.

In terms of the penny dropping, can you explain where the issue is.

Question for the old Allwin specialists out there, I assume this BMCo machine with auto payout uses a simple trigger to release the coin either back to the player or cash box depending on win or lose. Why do so many have a single slide and manual payout if this works !PUZZLED!
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gameswat
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Re: Bm co- wizard

Post by gameswat »

treefrog wrote:Why do so many have a single slide and manual payout if this works
TF, obviously they didn't work very well!! I'm sure it's because those Auto mechs were too fragile, as shown by the Mr PM post a little while ago with broken teeth from the coin cradle. Every operator would've had tons of manual parts laying around to repair a broken Auto Pay, and any brand of parts would work. Otherwise they had to repair, or find those specific parts from a wrecked BMCO Auto-Pay, and likely to easily bugger up again soon enough. And imagine how expensive those Auto-Pay machines were new compared to the industry standard Manuals!? Can't have sold many for that reason alone.
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Bm co wizard

Post by junior »

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Tf yep that's the back of my machine. After entering a penny, what I call the slide is where the coins stack up on end, 7 in total. It comes in two parts. The top part is missing and that keeps the coins flat as it sits on the bottom part. Without the top there's nothing to guide the coins, and does anyone have any ideas on a small round win sign for above the gallery?
Thanks.
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Re: Bm co- wizard

Post by pennymachines »

As Gameswat says, expense of manufacture and unreliability/unfix-ability caused by the considerable extra complexity of the BM Co. carousel auto pays would account for their rarity. That said, in good condition they work well, particularly if you can ensure only decent quality pennies are used. Problems arose when thin and bent coins caused jams and punters continued to force them through the slot until one of those thin aluminium compartments broke.

The BM Co. Wizard has a much simpler, more robust auto pay system. However, it is probably even less tolerant of thin and bent coins because it stacks a maximum of seven on end, releasing them individually via retracting fingers from the bottom.

While we await the before and after pictures of Junior's transgender uncle/auntie, here's the part missing from his machine. It clips over the existing chute via three lugs and is held in place by gravity. I find it works better secured in the middle with a small metal clamp which is easy to remove in case of a jam.

I think it's very unlikely anyone is holding a spare like this, but if you can find someone with a milling machine, it wouldn't be difficult to make from 5mm aluminium sheet.
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gameswat
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Re: BM Co. Wizard

Post by gameswat »

Ah, I didn't look closely at that last photo of the innards. But is that actually a later BMCO factory Auto-Pay, or just another operator's revamp to simplify the issues??
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Bm co wizard

Post by junior »

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There were two different methods of auto payouts that I know of on BM Co. I am not sure which was first or dates of manufacture or which machines had different auto payouts.
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Re: BM Co. Wizard

Post by pennymachines »

As far as I know, the Wizard was the only allwin BM Co. produced using this mechanism. I've seen a number of them over the years and although the styling looks more modern to my eye, they were apparently first made in 1933, a year before the complex carousel mechanism was patented. Evidently BM Co. were determined to bring the allwin into the 20th Century by making it auto-pay, like its bandit cousin. A few years later they resorted to solenoids on the Fleet Air Arm and sister allwins.
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Re: BM Co. Wizard

Post by pennymachines »

pennymachines wrote: Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:29 pm As far as I know, the Wizard was the only allwin BM Co. produced using this mechanism.
And now I know better... Recently seen on eBay, WOT - ALL WINS! is BMCo's auto-pay Wizard in all but name.
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Re: BM Co. Wizard

Post by gameswat »

But why the large payout cup on the Wot?
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Re: BM Co. Wizard

Post by pennymachines »

Probably a recent replacement... Looks out of place.
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Allwin ID please

Post by coppinpr »

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Can someone identify this rather nice allwin? The ball gallery seems unusual but surely the ball delivery tube is unique(?) if it's original. It seems to have an automatic coin return. Is it old or some sort of repro?
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Re: BM Co. auto-pay Wizard & Allwin

Post by pennymachines »

I've merged your query with the existing thread on these. Here's another that was on eBay some time ago.
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Re: BM Co. auto-pay Wizard & Allwin

Post by coppinpr »

I'm trying to fix this machine for the friend who now owns it. He bought it quite cheaply at auction and it has a few problems but I think I can deal with it with some expert help from the forum.

Clearly, I'm missing the coin slide cover for the slide (A) but I think I can make that. As it stands in the photo part (B) is not screwed in. Am I right in thinking it sits in a position where losers slide under it and winners are kicked into it (shown by the blue and yellow arrows on photo 2)? If this is so, is the coin slide top cover slightly wider at the bottom to allow for the coin to be kicked up a little?

Am I right in thinking the coin slide is permanently loaded with 7 coins?

The arm (c) has a notch cut in it - this usually means it's meant to clear some obstruction, but there is none, although the arm is quite flexible and looks like it should be restrained from bending(??)

The rocker part (D) that controls the payout acts slightly differently on this machine as there are six holes in the coin slide not four as in the photos above. I assume this is simply to give a larger gap (**) between the two sets of restraining pins (the middle holes are not used). So I assume the top pins hold back waiting coins while the machine deals with the coin in play which is a possible winner while the ball is in play. Is this the case?

What is the part (F) for? It seems a bit of an afterthought.

(**) is it possible that the six-hole option was to allow a payout 1 or 2 coins at the operator's discretion?
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Re: BM Co. auto-pay Wizard & Allwin

Post by pennymachines »

coppinpr wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:33 pm As it stands in the photo part (B) is not screwed in. Am I right in thinking it sits in a position where losers slide under it and winners are kicked into it (shown by the blue and yellow arrows on photo 2)?
No. Only winning coins are released through here to the payout cup.
coppinpr wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:33 pm Am I right in thinking the coin slide is permanently loaded with 7 coins?
When fully loaded, yes. When it's full, the next coin inserted rolls off through a gap in the top edge of the coin channel (G) and drops to the cash box.
coppinpr wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:33 pm The arm (c) has a notch cut in it - this usually means it's meant to clear some obstruction, but there is none, although the arm is quite flexible and looks like it should be restrained from bending(??)
The notch prevents impediment of the arm's movement during a win by the screw head above it (H).
coppinpr wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:33 pm What is the part (F) for? It seems a bit of an afterthought.
I haven't investigated, but would imagine if you unscrew it, push it to the left and screw it back in the new position, it will prevent the ball from returning after a win, limiting the game to coin return only.
coppinpr wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:33 pm is it possible that the six-hole option was to allow a payout 1 or 2 coins at the operator's discretion?
That sounds quite likely. It would be interesting to see.
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Re: BM Co. auto-pay Wizard & Allwin

Post by coppinpr »

Thanks for the help. I made the payout slide top cover from 3mm clear acrylic, this was easy to make,fits perfectly and allows jams to be seen easily, I took Mr p's advice and attached it with only clips so its easy to remove (this model was a bit prone to jams in the payout slide even when new) .The acrylic cover has the advantage of being very flat and smooth and the payouts seem to work perfectly now.

The double set of holes for the coin retaining pins are indeed an option for either 1 or 2 coin payout. Truth is, a two coin payout does make the machine more interesting to play.

Other interesting things that came to light were:
The owner complained the ball hammer was so worn it would not fire the ball correctly. I found the head of the hammer is bolted to the arm. This meant that removing the head and adding two or three washers to the bolt moved the head forward to its original position. The ball in the machine was too small, yet it had been there so long it was slowly wearing away the glass from the inside because its first reaction when hit by the hammer was to bounce sideways and hit the glass near the start point. A new, larger, ball cured this at once. The longer I had the machine, the more I liked it.

There were two machines the owner wanted sprucing up. The other was a Nostalgic Games "Lucky 7" late repro. The first time I've ever had my hands on one of these, and I hope the last.

The quality of just about every part was very poor indeed. If I remember correctly, the price of these was not cheap, yet the effort put into these was so poor. The backflash was simply a laminated piece of paper which, of course, had faded and blurred. The top marque sign was just a piece of thin paper with a blob of glue holding it to the backboard. A disgrace (I made a new vinyl top sign as I couldn't stand looking at the old one). The chrome was, for the most part, lost forever, ten times worse than the BM Co machine, even though the BM Co is 50 years older.

The case was solid but rubbish really. Any chips are hard to repair and Philips screws everywhere. One thing that really annoyed me was the constant use inside the machine of screws to hold moving parts in place and to retain springs. Part of the payout handle was not working because constant use had tightened up the screw holding it in place until it jammed up the rotation.

Both machines (which were bought as a single lot at auction) have now gone back to the owner. The BM Co to be the start of a collection, the Lucky 7 to go back into auction. !THUMBS!
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Re: BM Co. auto-pay Wizard & Allwin

Post by arrgee »

These Nostalgic machines were made in China so the poor quality does not surprise me. I recall there was a thread regarding these and their cases quite a while ago. I bought a couple of Bryans machines from the owner of Nostalgics years ago. Not sure if Nigel is still in the slot business - anyone know if he is?
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Re: BM Co. auto-pay Wizard & Allwin

Post by pennymachines »

coppinpr wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:57 pm The double set of holes for the coin retaining pins are indeed an option for either 1 or 2 coin payout. Truth is, a two coin payout does make the machine more interesting to play.
Interesting. I'm surprised the game can pay 2D plus ball return and still break even.
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