Auctions further North

[Robin]

How about an auction further north? We up here have not got the time or money to travel south to every auction. I see the auction advertised has an abundance of machines, some very interesting. I can not travel south all the time. The one auction my mate and I did attend near Cambridge, my mate was of the opinion that it was not entirely honest!!!!!!!!

[nobby.pennytoy]

I do agree a more central auction would seem to make far more sense and be fairer to collectors travelling from all parts of the country.

[badpenny]

Ok, this is all very good stuff.
I used to run the midlands slotty collector's get togethers and supplied the venues for John Hanson's auctions. But there is just one thing that nobody is talking about here, which is relevant and can't be ignored.
Namely the Gaming Board of GB. That is what stuffed us last time (or allowed someone to stuff us)
Believe me they may not be really interested in pre-decimal machines, but if they get wind they will not ignore. They can and will close, confiscate and generally ruin your day. Going to such an event is great fun for all.
Organising such an event is fraught with potential litigation and we certainly didn't have the required thousands of pounds to purchase the required licences let alone renew them.
I have a suggestion.
Anybody interested in forming an auction company? If we found a couple of hundred collectors prepared to cough up to buy the licence between us. I'm sure we could find a big pub prepared to give us the venue in exchange for the bar business. If we did it enough times we'd be able to use the commission income to pay back the subs and renew the licence? I'd be happy to start the ballbearing rolling and chuck in £50. Over to you .... By the way, it would be nice to see more names on these mails and less annonymous Guests, especially if I'm putting my money where my mouth is.

Badpenny

[nobby.pennytoy]

Hi all,
I have been in touch with Karl Shelley (Tel:01212331058) of the Gaming Licencing Board and he informed me that you can obtain up to 2 Licences per year to sell machines in auction free of charge.
I explained to him that these machines are pre-decimal.

[badpenny]

It may well have changed, John and I were doing this 4 years ago, however I suspect that refers to an individual selling a machine and not somebody running an auction selling other people's. John applied for one of these for the auctions we did at The Nelson, then when he applied for a second a year later was refused. So either it's more complicated or it has changed. The pre-decimal issue I fear may be irrelevant, their view tends to be it is a gambling device (yeah I know so is a pack of cards or even two rain drops racing down a window) but High Street shops selling those plastic toy bandits have had to stop when a complaint is made to the Gaming Board.
However I am prepared to be impressed, and if it is easy as that then find a large pub and do a deal on the venue as I suggested, agree your rates, do your marketing, print up your catalogues and I'll see you there. Birmingham, Coventry or Northampton are large places, central and near to motorways.

Badpenny

[nobby.pennytoy]

I think Badpenny has put 2 + 2 together and made 5.I merely enquired about the Gaming Licencing Board regulations at this current time in the hope that someone may be interested enough to run an auction and not be too afraid of bureaucracy.I don't claim to wish to run the auction myself,but just leave encouraging replies to someone that may be in a position to run one.
I feel it is necessary in order to keep the collecting of slot machines alive,that we need to support each other in what ever appropriate means available;if its only a 'get together' of like minded people.

[badpenny]

Not at all, I thought we were both giving encouragement to those who wanted to take the lead. I've already had a few years of hosting these kind of get togethers and wished to give all the current posters a bit of a steer. My suggestion of starting an auction company stands and I'm more than happy to get involved with any others as keen, but this time I want to sleep at night so far as being at risk of anyone being vindictive. It's not a case of being afraid of bureuacracy it's a case of not wanting to have my machines confiscated, and ending up with a criminal record. I know of a trader in the early 90's who won himself a healthy fine through such bureuacracy and there's a current collector in the Leicestershire area who not too long ago got a visit from plod after the local paper did an article on his hobby, they asked him to sell them a machine (verging on entrapment I'd have thought)
I think the law is a total idiot on this matter, however like a lot of idiots it has teeth. Which is why those who do run auctions regularly or earn a living from selling slots do have a licence to do it.

Badpenny

[badpenny]

I've just spent several hours on the phone and internet

*Yes those currently holding auctions do have a permit
*Yes we were stopped 4 years ago from being given a renewal for |The Nelson because the team that dealt with it were in London and their interpretation of the law is not necessarily the same as the new team in Birmingham.
*No it doesn't matter if it's new, old, ancient, electric, clockwork, a toy, pre-decimal or nuclear powered it's a gambling machine and its sale comes under the act.
*Yes they will intervene if you ignore the act.
*It doesn't matter if you own the machine or are selling it on behalf of somebody else, a sale of a machine is what is happening so the act applies.
*The law changes next year, what that means is not yet known, but in the meantime they will issue me a temporary permit.
........ so I've asked them to post me the application, with the intention of running a Central England Vintage Slot Machine Auction !!!!!!!!!!
So I'm prepared to give it a go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Basic Outline for discussion and guidance from you the punters.

Where? ... As central as possible and as near to motorways as possible
When?......Late Autumn'ish
Costs?......Entry by catalogue paid for in advance, or bought on door. Seller's commission (to be worked out) I'd like to avoid buyer's commision completely if possible. Cash only, sellers paid out on day.

Now please ...... I need to know if you'd support this, and if you'd enter machines, there's no point in everyone turning up to buy if no one is prepared to sell.
I don't expect to make money on this, but by the same gaming token I don't want to lose any!
Over to you.................

What on earth am I agreeing to here

Badpenny

[nobby.pennytoy]

Just to wish you all the best with the Central Auction (I trust it will be a Sunday?).
I'm sure it will be an overwhelming success. Count me in. Can't wait.

[pennymachines]

Just for the record - when I spoke to the Gaming Board (as it was then), prior to opening this site, they said the license would not cover a "bricks and mortar" auction unless all the items belonged to the licensee. Presumably this is why Bonhams didn't buy one in the 1990s, but opted instead to halt their regular slot machine sales. The approach seems to have changed under the newly set up Gambling Commission. Both Southern Counties and Christies approached the Commission for permission to hold their "one-off" sales. As Laurence Fisher (of Christies) recently commented "this is the last sale this year where I will sell slot machines so the next opportunity will be next May. This is of course to do with my Gambling Commission Permit Licence which expires in June because I can only apply for two per year."

Provided they maintain this "two discretionary permits a year" policy, future vintage slot machine sales can run on a sounder legal footing.

As Badpenny points out, a gambling machine was best defined as "pretty well anything the Gaming Board chose to call a gambling machine" regardless of age, coinage, skill required or prizes given (or not given). Not much has changed, but I notice with interest that the Commission is finally "declassifying" pinball and video games. See: Gaming Machines and Amusement Machine Licence Duty.

[cheeky]

Site admin comes to the rescue again. Well done that man and for all the research carried out by Badpenny.

SUGGESTION - could a pressure group be formed by slotties to encourage a change in the legislation - say of machines 20 years old or more?

Could we have a vote on it and send it to a favourable MP?

[cheeky]

A gaming machine will remain a gaming machine even if its coin slots, payouts etc are removed so don't try that one!

Scrap is not defined in the act but more generally in criminal law. If the item were to be scrapped then the machine would have to be rendered totally useless i.e. crushed. If the item could be easily returned to its former condition then it would cease to be so.

I would suggest that even taking the mech from a machine would not render it scrap as a new mech could be inserted. It would need to be crushed!

This would probably end up as a Test Case but I wouldn't want to foot the bill! Remember the Gaming Board having endless pots of money and Bonhams didn't want to challenge them. You have been warned!

On a lighter note, if the Northerners arrange an auction, I will be there!

Good luck!