Rotamints

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geofflove
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Re: Rotamint Duett

Post by geofflove »

Thanks. I was slightly confused as I’d seen one ‘Duett’ wiring diagram which showed two motors and another which showed one and stated it as the circuit for a ‘Duette E’.
Frustratingly, the first pic had the name torn from it, so although it was accompanied with the relay connection sheet which stated ‘Duett’, it is possible it’s been wrongly attributed to a Duett. Anyone any idea which model had the second motor?


8E827AF7-6168-4E56-8B64-7BB0150E592C.jpeg

Edit - I think I have answered my own question. The additional motor appears to belong to a Duett ‘Jackpot’ machine. See circuit. Not sure what the difference in play was but guess that explains my confusion!
jackie3896
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Re: Rotamint Duett

Post by jackie3896 »

Hi,

They had different payout amounts. Some only 4 amounts (2,4,8 and 10 times) and some a lot more. I guess the ones with a larger number of amounts had to have the extra motor.

If you look at the schematic in the back of your machine and compare it to the Duett schematic previously listed in this post you will see they are slightly different.

Chris.
geofflove
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Re: Rotamint Duett

Post by geofflove »

That explains. Yes it was the schematics that led me to the conclusion there were different variants of the duett. From just looking at the back views of the machines I'd initially assumed they were from completely different models. Thanks for the help. I'm sure I'll be back with more questions once I take delivery of it - hopefully within the week!
geofflove
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Re: Rotamint Duett

Post by geofflove »

So - today I took delivery of my first project - the Duett. I'm suspecting not the simplest of first projects so here we go - hopefully some of you wonderful people with a bit more experience will know a few things....!
It's not the tidiest of machines but appears to be mostly there. Hardly any bulbs left in it, so I need to order a few of those! On delivery, none of the wheels were turning, although the motor was. All the brakes were stuck on. After discovering how the brakes actually worked, I discovered that the brake pins were not engaged with the 'lifters'. After that, the middle wheel still wasn't turning. I think it was a combination of slipping too much and also rubbing against the wiring harness. Removed cleaned and added a spacer behind the middle wheel to the rear of an axle to bring it forward a few mm and also tightened the spring on the shaft, and now they are all turning!

It now runs (all the time!) and the outer two wheels periodically stop and start. I now need to do some more detailed troubleshooting. All the relay contracts etc. look OK and appear to be making and breaking correctly, although I haven't tested them all with the meter. In order to do this I need to know what's what however.

This is the circuit in the box -


Circuita.jpg

It shows a separate 'payout motor', although I can't find this on the machine! However, nothing appears to be obviously missing - any clues?
Here's a view of the back.


labelleda.jpg

The coin area seems to be a bit of a mess and I'll need to take this off top clean it, but it would help to have a simple description of how it's meant to operate. I note there is a micro switch with a long lever on it - I assume this is triggered by the falling coin somehow. The is also a much larger set of contacts (marked 1). These are the ones I'm having to close manually to get the machine to operate currently. I can see there is a mechanism linked to the motor which I've currently got disconnected. If anyone can describe the sequence of how this is meant to work it would be very helpful.

I suspect someone way have done something weird with the payout too. It seems (although I could be wrong) that an additional solenoid and tube have been bolted to the outside of the existing unit. This solenoid is only currently wired by one wire and I can't see how the coins get into this new tube (although there was a 3 inch length of coin chute in the bottom of the box). All very odd. The original coin tube and solenoid is still there behind this 'new bit'. Is it really meant to be there? If not I'll remove it!


coinsa.jpg

So before I get my meter out and start tracing voltages and switches, can anyone tell me which relay number 3 on the pic is? I've not seen this operate yet and am not sure which it is on the diagram. And what does cam 4 on the motor do? It turns continuously at a reasonable speed, constantly actuating the switches linked to it. Which on the circuit is it and what does it do?

OK, that's it for now! If I manage to get a few answers it will enable me to troubleshoot a little further and I'll keep you updated with progress. I've not ventured to the brake switches at the bottom and their associated ingenious mechanisms! My plan is firstly to get the wheels spinning and stopping in the appropriate sequence (so far the middle wheel only operates if you manually press the solenoid on the back to release the brake). After that, I'll move on to the payout and finally the manual switches.

I'd LOVE to hear from the experts! Thanks
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badpenny
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Re: Rotamint Duett

Post by badpenny »

In the absence of the expert you're searching for, I'm prepared to stand in a bucket of water, and stab the electrics while offering my befuddled memories of these sadistic cherubs.

If you're having trouble with the brakes coming on or releasing I suggest you first check how free the three brake pin/solenoids are, They need to be very easy to move.
If they're fine check the gaps and cleanliness of the contacts on the bank of switches top left of mechanism. Look for the three that kick out of play one after the other before it starts hunting for a winning combination.

Switch one starts the game, the coin sits on the switch closing it, the cams at the top turn and close another switch which keeps the game running. There's a lever which moves in and ejects the coin from the gate.
No.2 is the pay out tube and at the bottom, the solenoid that punches the coins out. The tube is missing a length it should reach up to the ramp above.
No.3 Might be the relay that lifts all three brake pins clear of the wheels at the beginning of the game.
No.4 I forget, the wheel spins hitting the bank of reed switches below so they open and close. I think it might be giving a random element to the stop switches on the front (turning them on and off) to restrict the control the player has over the skill buttons to each reel.

That's about all I can offer in suggestions, apart from "beware of advice freely given by others, you should ask yourself why they are prepared to rid themselves of it"

BP !SCARED!
geofflove
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Re: Rotamint Duett

Post by geofflove »

Thanks for the help. The brake pins are definitely OK as manually lifting them works fine. I will start checking the switches next. A quick continuity test on the coin micro switch suggests it might not be operational, but bypassing it doesn’t work either, so that’s another area to sort.
The randomiser idea makes sense.
In terms of the coin pay I don’t understand why there are two solenoids and two tubes. They don’t seem to appear on the schematic and I still can’t locate the payout motor mentioned, so suspect the machine may have been altered at some point, meaning the diagram may only be helpful so far.....
This is another view of the extra coin pay showing what I think is the original tube and solenoid behind and the ‘new?’ part and solenoid on top.


41B4F14B-C0B0-4B31-A20F-6757DDC4D4A3a.jpg

Thanks again. Will update once I get a bit further.
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badpenny
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Re: Rotamint Duett

Post by badpenny »

You're right, the set up hidden behind is the original pay out, the other has been added on.
There is no pay out motor, it's all done with solenoids, smoke, mirrors and not insignificant danger.

I've never seen a twin pay out rig before, but then again I've never seen the Eiffel Tower.
I imagine the one that isn't original may be for a token or special award, and is hand filled. Is there anything mentioned on the front about such wins?

BP |/XX\|
geofflove
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Re: Rotamint Duett

Post by geofflove »

There is mention on the front of ‘mystery payouts’! It’s on a separate plastic part displayed on the front, so I suspect your thoughts are correct and someone has added this on at some time.

By way of today’s progress for those who might find it helpful....

I discovered that the main bank of cam switches had been knocked backwards one one side, meaning switch 1 wasn’t operating. There are a couple of adjustment screws for this, so that was out right, and the contacts for switch 1 also needed bending slightly. This got the microswitch on the coin op working and the machine now makes one cycle before switching off again. The coin mech will need a complete strip down I think, so I still need to check the rest of it.

The brake on the middle reel was still not releasing. I checked the voltage on the solenoid which did indeed appear at a point in the cycle. I then discover an open circuit on the solenoid coil. This filled me with dread, as I thought a rewind would be the only option. I first had to remove the metal chassis that the 3 solenoids are mounted on. I then drilled the rivets on the solenoid and removed the solenoid from the unit. I managed to remove the switches and actuator from the coil. I carefully removed the paper covering from the coil and was about to start unwinding the coil from the core when I spotted a tiny break in the coil just before it entered the end terminator. A quick touch with the soldering iron and it was back to 800 ohms on the coil like the other two. Re assembled and replaced, confident that this will get the middle wheel turning.


D2234629-9DF8-49BA-B195-BD6CDA11EDD0a.jpg

Plugged in to check my work and a quick spark and blew 2 fuses! Then realised that in removing and replacing the bank of solenoids I must have knocked the switch mounted on the cam on the front of the motor, shorting some of the tabs where the wires are soldered on to them! I soon bent these back but now have to wait for some replacement fuses.

While I’m waiting for those to arrive I might attempt the coin mech..... I’ve also removed the ‘extra’ payout unit for the time being.

Hope this is helpful to someone sometime. Will be back with the next update!
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badpenny
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Re: Rotamint Duett

Post by badpenny »

It's all good stuff "geofflove".
You're making progress and leaving a good trail for those who follow the next time someone needs advice.

Most of these machines end up in the too confuddling to be tackled pile. When actually they're not, they're very basic in their operation. Which actually may be part of the problem in so much as the game itself is quite basic, so the effort may not seem rewarding to some. I've currently got two identical ones (with the winking lion on the front) awaiting my attention, but so long as I've still got the majority of my To do List to tackle my attention isn't likely to wander very far in their direction.
Keep up the good work, it's astonishing to think it's nearly eight years since we lost the late/great Harold English. His regular contributions to this forum kept these electro mechanical beasties in view.

BP :cool:
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Re: Rotamint Duett

Post by pennymachines »

Delving deeper into the forum, I rediscovered this topic on Rotamints which you may find helpful. It includes troubleshooting a Duett and English diagrams and a video showing the game operating.

Image

Image

Image

Image

geofflove
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Re: Rotamint Duett

Post by geofflove »

Thanks for the replies and info. While awaiting fuse delivery I sorted the coin mech today. It needed a good clean to get it working smoothly. I’m unsure what coin it’s meant to use. The details say a sixpence but this just drops through the reject slot. I’m wondering if it’s actually changed to a three penny bit? Anyway I temporarily bodged by blocking the reject channel below and removed the magnet so it now take a new 1p! I’ve ordered to threepenny bits so when they arrive I’ll see if I can undo my bodging!

I’ve also cleaned and oiled the payout mech which seems good now.

Interesting to see another machine and diagram like mine. Both show the payout motor and the pic you added shows the motor on the back. As you’ll see in pics mine doesn’t and although there are some holes in the chassis there’s nothing to suggest one has recently been removed so am puzzled. I can’t honestly see how the payout mechanism will work. Looking at the payout cam there just seems to be 2 bumps running across the full width if the payout switches. I can’t see how this will work to pay the different combinations of wins And given a motor is shown on the diagram in my machine I’m hoping I’m not going to reach in the end a find a key part is actually missing! Here is a shot of the cams.
50402D00-1133-4C20-979C-094DC304F9ED.jpeg

Also looking at the pic I’ve just noticed what look like some removed ‘bumps’ to the left. Hmmmmm! Any one got a technique to replace ‘bumps’ on these cams?!
geofflove
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Re: Rotamint Duett

Post by geofflove »

A further question! Can anyone explain the workings of the three wheels in terms of the diagram? (Bottom part of diagram above)

The wipers which connect to the two ball bearings on each disc are obviously the two arrows at the top.

I’m guessing they connect the pairs of poles below them in turn working down the pairs? Is this correct? Or do they connect pairs of the same numbers? And if not what do the numbers refer to? Payout amounts? I thought about it a few times and can’t reach a confident conclusion which i need if I’m to do any trouble shooting!

Thanks
geofflove
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Re: Rotamint Duett

Post by geofflove »

So today I decided to venture into the 3 wheels while I still await fuses. The wheels each contain a pair of sprung pegs with cup shapes on top on which sit 2 tiny ball bearings. When the wheels are replaced the ball bearings are sandwiched between the wheel and the chassis. They then bridge the gap between pairs of stationary contacts thus completing various win circuits. That’s the theory. There were no connections at all. This Was partly down to corroded contacts on the chassis but mainly down to the cups the bearings sit in being carbonised and and spirits behind also not connecting. Dismantled, very fiddly cleaning with brasso and contact cleaner and about 6 reassemblies before I managed to get the 2 ball bearings making reliable contact with each other via the posts and springs. Sadly lost 2 springs in the process and I was caught unawares when I open the first wheel and they pinged! They are in the garage somewhere but an hour of searching did not reveal them. They are tiny! Will now have to find replacements.

I must say I’m not holding out huge hopes of getting the payout system working on this one.....
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geofflove
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Re: Rotamint Duett

Post by geofflove »

Does anyone happen to know the purpose of the cam switch in the coin mechanism on this machine?


324AB62D-1041-4264-909A-0D76D4301706a.jpg

The microswitch latches a relay to start one cycle of the machine. Partway through, a lever on the main cam operates, and a lever pushes the coin out of the mechanism where it drops down the chute. As it is ejected, it momentarily breaks the reed switch pictured. The issue is that small coins are ejected without triggering the switch, whereas larger ones trigger the switch. As I don’t know for sure what coin this machine takes, I’m unsure if the coins are meant to trip the switch on ejection or if it’s additional protection against incorrect coins sizes and is not routinely meant to trip? Anyone know or has thoughts? I can’t 100% be sure on the circuit - especially as I’m not 100% sure I even have the right circuit for this model!
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badpenny
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Re: Rotamint Duett

Post by badpenny »

geofflove wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 10:52 am Does anyone happen to know the purpose of the cam switch in the coin mechanism on this machine?
As I said in my post at the weekend "Switch one starts the game, the coin sits on the switch closing it, the cams at the top turn and close another switch which keeps the game running. There's a lever which moves in and ejects the coin from the gate."
geofflove wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 10:52 am The issue is that small coins are ejected without triggering the switch, whereas larger ones trigger the switch. As I don’t know for sure what coin this machine takes, I’m unsure if the coins are meant to trip the switch on ejection or if it’s additional protection against incorrect coins sizes and is not routinely meant to trip? Anyone know or has thoughts? I can’t 100% be sure on the circuit - especially as I’m not 100% sure I even have the right circuit for this model!
Until you identify a coin of the correct weight, diameter and thickness you can't depend on the mechanism following its cycle. I'd be tripping switches manually, however, it happens as I detailed above, the coin can't trip the switch as it's ejected as the ejector lever doesn't move until the switch is tripped.


BP :cool:
geofflove
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Re: Rotamint Duett

Post by geofflove »

Thanks. I can follow the first part of the sequence and that all makes sense. The part I’m struggling with is that once the cam turns to eject the coin, if a coin of a certain size is present it forces another lever to open the reed switch pictured. The microswitch is the one the coin sits on to start the machine.
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badpenny
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Re: Rotamint Duett

Post by badpenny »

What other lever?
And if it opens the switch it's interrupting the power. Is that what you're saying?

You need to identify the coin in order to fault find progressively. Otherwise you're just adding to the issues each time. Examine carefully from ...
The coin slot
The gauge behind the slot
The gate where the coin sits on the micro switch, the weight needed to trip the switch, how well it supports different diameter coins so the lever can engage.
The pay out tube

From what I can see of the tube it could be 1d. To be 3d. there would need to be a lot of thickness involved wherever the coin passes vertically, especially the bottom plate of the pay out.
I'd have thought 6d unlikely, I've never seen one on 6d, unless converted by a collector. It was a lot of money to be asking someone to lose.
geofflove
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Re: Rotamint Duett

Post by geofflove »

The info inside the machine says 6d with jackpot. However, I’m pretty convinced what I have is a chassis that’s been moved into a different case as the circuit diagram in the case doesn’t match the chassis. I’ve tried with a token which is almost right. I’m pretty sure it’s a 3d play. Am waiting for some to arrive. The token is about 21mm diameter and about 2mm thick, so not far off a 3d, and the payout seems to have a little room to spare. 6ds come through 2 or 3 at a time. These two pics show the coin sat in position operating the start switch and the second is me manually holding out the lever which the coin raises as it is pushed out by the lever on the cam. My current coin doesn’t move the lever anywhere near this far and, as a result, doesn’t operate the switch. Being a slightly larger diameter, I’m wondering if the 3d will cause it to operate. Still not sure what it does though, as the fuses haven’t arrived!
As you might be able to make out it the in pic the switch is normally closed. The coin popping out opens it interrupting the power.
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badpenny
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Re: Rotamint Duett

Post by badpenny »

It is probably a bit of a mongrel.
The 6d is (as I said) a light coin to be depressing switches and a lot of money to have been chucking into what was quite an unexciting machine and already a bit long in the tooth by the time it arrived here.
I'd consider taking the opportunity to put it on something more suitable, while you can.

Another shortcoming of this model is the metal frame that makes up part of the pay out tray can become LIVE with electrickery. I've had two that have done this. It's not 240 AC but it can make you yodel. It's constant and doesn't need to be cycling to be felt. I think it's something to do with a common return shared by the button lamps and the buttons effect on the skill stops.

BP
geofflove
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Re: Rotamint Duett

Post by geofflove »

Ouch! Sounds like maybe it was also doubling up as one of those old electric shock machines!
I’ll watch out for that! There’s certainly lots of scope for stray volts throughout this one!

I’m hoping I’ll be able to get it working on 3d. Despite what it claims it’s not on 6d. They drop straight through the slot. I think 3d might be the right thickness. Just need Royal Mail to bring me some to try now.
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